tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post3602351337321957093..comments2024-02-27T01:17:39.925-08:00Comments on The Nine and Thirty Kingdoms: Ring, Scale, ChainTalysmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-30658680466934035642013-07-17T16:33:44.091-07:002013-07-17T16:33:44.091-07:00@Charles
Very useful comment. Thank you for posti...@Charles<br /><br />Very useful comment. Thank you for posting it, and for the link to the Blair book.Necropraxishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12716340801054739658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-19874329467601543702013-07-17T11:54:37.539-07:002013-07-17T11:54:37.539-07:00Yeah, I was going to say I think the Ffoulkes book...Yeah, I was going to say I think the Ffoulkes book is dated, if that's the one I'm thinking of, where you basically have all these illustrations based on funeral brasses and grave reliefs where mail armor is drawn in a variety of ways and interpreted as different designs. Not a lot of lighter armor survived (as opposed to plate) so there was a lot of speculation based on art. (The ffoulkes book on plate (The armourer and his craft...) is still good though. Both are online at archive.org, for the curious.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-33412443170224996832013-07-17T10:55:17.523-07:002013-07-17T10:55:17.523-07:00Here's ring armour from Japan - you can see th...Here's ring armour from Japan - you can see that it is, for all intents and purposes, just scale armour with little holes in the scales:<br /><br />http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz238/estcrh/000003.jpg<br /><br />Incidentally, this would be crap. A thrust would have a very high chance of sliding off a ring into the space between the rings, where there is no protection.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-86169118468141127382013-07-17T10:52:52.149-07:002013-07-17T10:52:52.149-07:00Studded leather, ringmail, and banded mail are not...Studded leather, ringmail, and banded mail are not things, at least not in Europe.<br /><br />Studded leather is people misunderstanding Brigandine (plates riveted between two pieces of leather) - it looks like a leather doublet with rivets in it. Adding studs to leather would literally add zero protective value, but would significantly add to the weight of the piece. Why would anyone do that? The answer is - they wouldn't, and they didn't.<br /><br />Ringmail was, for all intents and purposes, never used. It was certainly never used in Europe, and there is only limited evidence of very rare use in Asia. If you think about it, this would be a lousy defense. Which is why it wasn't a thing. Chain is better, and scale is better, and require the similar levels of technology.<br /><br />Banded mail is people misunderstanding old drawings of chain mail - it's not a different thing, or a different way of arranging the links, or anything. Banded mail is a meaningless term. European chain was almost without exception of the 4-in-1 riveted variety.<br /><br />So, for game purposes:<br /><br />"Studded leather" should really be called "Brigandine" and treated like (half) plate or plate and mail.<br /><br />Ringmail need not be included, as it wasn't a thing (and would be a crappy defense if it was, which is why it wasn't).<br /><br />Banded mail = chain mail.<br /><br />I don't think Ffolkes is a reliable source on armour, as he was writing too early. There were a lot of bizarre misconceptions about armour before about the 50's. Any book that mentions banded mail can safely be discarded as thoroughly unreliable.<br /><br />European Armour by Claude Blaire is excellent, but I don't think it's in print.Charles Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00941603544547428940noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-38400755344630428672013-07-17T09:06:07.943-07:002013-07-17T09:06:07.943-07:00I dunno. I'd call that pretty uncomfortable.I dunno. I'd call that pretty uncomfortable.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-23894721235285550712013-07-17T08:56:34.178-07:002013-07-17T08:56:34.178-07:00The underjacket isn't just to prevent discomfo...The underjacket isn't just to prevent discomfort, you need it for padding against impact and to stop chain links from getting driven into your flesh.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.com