tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post5216469204332171091..comments2024-02-27T01:17:39.925-08:00Comments on The Nine and Thirty Kingdoms: Morality and MurderhobosTalysmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-49439735169629437862012-09-08T10:54:46.517-07:002012-09-08T10:54:46.517-07:00The blog is 1000% better with arrogance, and it wa...The blog is 1000% better with arrogance, and it was pretty damn good before.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-85504503430937048522012-09-05T00:43:07.210-07:002012-09-05T00:43:07.210-07:00the fact that goblins carry coins and trade that t...<em>the fact that goblins carry coins and trade that they do have some sort of primitive culture</em><br /><br />Bingo. Dragons and the beastie that guards the Golden Fleece have some Other, non-economic use for what adventurers repurpose as treasure, but if goblins have swords and armour and copper pieces in their pockets then they begin to look a lot like the foot soldiers of the other side - hirelings with funny foreheads. And if you can play a half-orc then that implication seems even closer. As usual The Original Game is ambiguous.<br /><br />I'm sorry if I read you selectively. In fairness, the rest of my own comment was all about how goblins can be (and might have been in that mythical First DnD Campaign of Yore) mere wargame tokens.<br /><br />I'm going to paste my G+ thing here because I guess not everyone looks at both places. If you don't want me to do that in future, please say and I'll desist:<br /><br /> ...the trouble with goblins (or orcs) in these debates is they have so many roots and have been used so many ways that they're now floating signifiers - they mean lots of things and therefore nothing specific until you attach some narrative to them, at which point they instantly become metaphorical for something, but for what, exactly? That depends on the narratives you bring to the table. There are Chinese records from around Southeast Asia which describe the Portuguese as malevolent goblins who eat Chinese children (they steam the skins off to make them more palatable). There are German folk tales where goblins live in the woods and lure children into pools, so those goblins seem to be stand-ins for natural hazards, but there are also other versions of the same stories where the same goblins are specifically black and they enslave the children and/or kidnap them and take them to (hated, Catholic) Spain. <a href="http://terruizeng.blogspot.fr/2012/09/priests-of-tu.html" rel="nofollow">Priests of Tu</a> describes a human condition that's so common it probably crops up in every nation's foundational myths at some point (even the British "own" Braveheart, and Arthur against the Saxons, and the Anglo-Saxons against the Normans, French and Spanish, and Americans against the Brits, and now the Brits against the Americans, <em>overpaid, oversexed and over 'ere</em>), but the accompanying picture on the <em>Priests of Tu</em> post swings it in a specific direction.<br /><br />And not everyone will catch all the narratives that are already embedded in any specific situation, and so for some the signifier keeps floating, while for others it's firmly anchored to some more or less specific set of historical precedents. So yes, metaphors are there whether you mean them or not, but no, goblins are not inherently metaphorical. In the same way that a key doesn't <em>quite</em> demand a lock, it might just be an interestingly toothy stick.<br /><br />All that said, as a simple point of language if you include an <em>evil race</em> in your game then you are necessarily replicating the structures of racism. That's not necessarily a bad thing to do in your game - I'm not saying anyone <em>is a racist</em> for doing it - we're playing <em>let's pretend</em>, after all, and I'm not going to accuse anyone of thoughtcrime in their imagining hypothetical situations, and you don't necessarily have to then re-enact History of Peoples of Colour 101 around your table to take the curse off it, but to say you're not dealing in racism because you didn't mean to is just false. <br /><br />(And lots of folk tales deal in racism, and quite a few goblins in folk tales are individuals, not part of a racial set or type. Like demons.)richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13517340075234811323noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-24506224945390193612012-09-04T23:03:44.874-07:002012-09-04T23:03:44.874-07:00I possibly should not have used the opening line a...I possibly should not have used the opening line about bandits. It was meant to be a set-up for explaining the difference between "their stuff" and "someone else's stuff", and pointing out the unspoken assumption behind condemning PCs as "murderhobos". Some people took that to mean I was advocating killing bandits.Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-4831782904351069632012-09-04T22:59:30.880-07:002012-09-04T22:59:30.880-07:00I actually did something just recently about gobli...I actually did something just recently about <a href="http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.com/2012/08/gobsplosion.html" rel="nofollow">goblins and just about every monster being the by-product of magic,</a> more like a curse unleashed by misuse of magic than anything else. I haven't said much about how to portray them, other than eliminating goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, and bugbear babies and having them kidnapping children. I have some ideas. Perhaps I'll whip something up...Talysmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02162328521343832412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-13417726475306369982012-09-04T21:40:30.320-07:002012-09-04T21:40:30.320-07:00...or devoid of any culture whatsoever. In fact it......or devoid of any culture whatsoever. In fact it seems implied that the fact that goblins carry coins and trade that they do have some sort of primitive culture, semi-intelligent as they are.<br /><br />goblins as demons. that is an idea I can dig but I've yet to see it done that way first hand.<br /><br />you know what would make a good post? portraying goblins as demons. How would you present them in game to set them apart from the humanized goblins that is so pervasive nowadays?<br /><br />where I think a lot of fail happens is chaos is rarely portrayed as chaos.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-44245084276602273272012-09-04T21:30:12.468-07:002012-09-04T21:30:12.468-07:00In practice it is rare to not see goblins and orcs...In practice it is rare to not see goblins and orcs being humanized. I honestly can't think of any game I've been in, or module that I've read really where goblins were not some sort of comic relief character when talked too.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7239577512598038009.post-76592439247312701312012-09-04T21:19:36.802-07:002012-09-04T21:19:36.802-07:00Aha! now I get the last part! It read like you wer...Aha! now I get the last part! It read like you were suggesting that it was okay or something, to which I thought, "Well, f**k all that". The first half of the post especially really read like you were advocating murderhoboism. With the above explanation I see what you were saying in the last sentence but the set up very much escaped my comprehension.Nopehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02743719179352388875noreply@blogger.com